by J.D. Rhoades
Does good writing even matter?
I’ve been thinking about this question for a couple of weeks ever since our discussion of the TWILIGHT books. You may remember that commenter KarinNH mentioned that her students were reading the books and that:
…one ventured that I wouldn’t like the series because “it is really poorly written.” Interestingly, the ones who were recommending the books all agreed. Emphatically. However, they were willing to look past that because they liked the story.
I found this interesting for a couple of reasons. One, my daughter, who’s read all the books and seen all the movies, says exactly the same thing: the writing’s really bad, but you care about the story. Two, I felt the same way about the last book that everyone I know purported to despise, but which I found quite entertaining: Dan Brown’s THE DAVINCI CODE.
The prose in TDVC is, in a word, atrocious: clumsy sentences (starting with the first one); infodumps; word choices that leave you scratching your head. If you want more explanation, go here.
And yet, when I took it to the beach with me, I I couldn’t put it down. Neither, apparently could millions of other readers. Why? Because the story hooked me and dragged me along. Oh, I was rolling my eyes and occasionally wincing at the prose, but there’s no denying, it had me.
Just a couple of weeks ago I read another technothriller from another well-known author. The dialogue was unbelievable, the hero was just a little too perfect to get next to as a character, and sometimes the set-ups for the action scenes sounded like a catalog put out by the guys who manufacture military gear (when the hero and his buddies are getting ready to kick bad-guy ass, do we really NEED to know who made their gloves?) But once again, I read it cover to cover, because the aforementioned bad-guy asses were kicked, names were taken, and the story was just fun to read.
I think all of us can describe books we’ve read where the prose was gorgeous, but we eventually put the books aside, because nothing really happened to any of those exquisitely described people in their gorgeously described setting. I once described a friend’s book to another friend thusly: “it’s literary fiction, but don’t worry, stuff actually happens.”
On the other hand, we can all reel off long lists of bestsellers, going back years, where the prose ranged from barely serviceable (early Tom Clancy) to pretty much god-awful (VALLEY OF THE DOLLS and all of Harold Robbins). And yet, we read them. Cover to cover and often more than once.
Which brings us back to our main question: does good prose even matter? Why do we bother? Why spend all that time looking for just the right word, paring down the adverbs, repeating to ourselves “show, don’t tell, show, don’t tell,” etc, if all the majority of readers care about is the story?
I‘ve thought about it quite a bit, and I know what my answer is. I’ll reveal it in the comments, after I hear some of your thoughts on the matter. And while we’re at it…share some of your favorite badly written novels you couldn’t put down.
Hi Dusty
Very interesting point, and sometimes I despair of the state of editing in this game. I can’t share any books that I thought were atrociously written but couldn’t put down…mainly because I didn’t have any problem putting them down.
In fact, does throwing them across a room in disgust count?
I do occasionally force myself to continue to the end of a book that’s really badly written (if I’m in a particularly masochistic mood) but it’s more to try and work out what it was about the damn thing that appealed to an agent/editor/publisher in the first place.
Still working on that one…
In fact, does throwing them across a room in disgust count?
Absolutely. I don’t do that as much as I used to, because the cat started fleeing from the room every time she saw me pick up a book, and I felt kind of bad about that.
A novel’s prose has to be good enough to get me into the story. I’m most aware of writing for the first two-thirds of a novel. From there, if the writer has set up a climax compelling enough, I care more about seeing what happens than about the finer points of the writing.
I also think the closer the narration is, the more the writing matters. If you’re telling a story without much psychic distance–first person or third person-limited–you have to get into the viewpoint character’s mindset and voice. The prose can’t be very clunky. If you’re using telling the story from a greater distance, you only need to give the broad strokes. I’d argue that it’s more difficult to love a broad-stroke character, but they are readable enough.
I admire some writers’ prose more than others, and I prefer certain narrative styles more than others, but these differences keep me fascinated about writing overall.
I’ve come to think Ian Fleming’s prose was unremarkable and sometimes stiff, but I’d reread DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER and FROM RUSSIA, WITH LOVE anytime.
Gerald, Ian Fleming’s a great example. And I hadn’t thought about the "closeness" of the narration making a difference, but that’s a very good point.
I put up with fairly clunky prose if the story’s good or the characters are compelling, but sometimes I think it comes down not to elegant prose in modern novels, but a certain efficiency. Brown is pretty damned clunky and all his characters end up sounding like docents at major metropolitan museums, but he reasonably efficient in how he writes. Not wonderfully efficient, but it’s fairly clear he’s trying to move the story along fast while educating the reader about whatever esoterica the book is about. I could do with a lot less of the educational material–when I struggled through the The Lost Symbol I complained through the first 100-200 pages that if I had wanted to read a nonfiction book I would have bought one, but once the story finally kicked in with enough INCIDENTS, I was hooked.
I don’t know if I am one who can be a judge of good writing or bad. I recognize proper sentences and grammar. Typos jump out at me. I see there is a big difference between classics and "literature" versus a book written purely for entertainment. Does every book have to held to high standard? I’m thinking of the pulps. The intention was different.
I read TWILIGHT and didn’t like it — the bad writing didn’t register with me, I just didn’t like it though I saw why it was popular. I liked THE DA VINCI CODE. Again, I’m not a judge of writing; I’ve always liked that kind of story. Right now I’m reading THE PASSAGE by Justin Cronin. I don’t know if it’s well written because I’m not looking for that. The story is haunting me and I don’t know why I can’t put it down.
Does the debate of good versus bad writing come down to being subjective? Is it a matter really of writing style? You don’t like it, does it mean it’s bad? I see what people like in Ken Bruen’s style but I don’t particularly care for it. This question will probably play in the background of my mind as I’m going about my day.
Fortunately, Dusty, we don’t have a cat.
I’m more likely to set a book aside because of the writing than the story, but I know I’m weird that way. I can enjoy a poorly-written book if the prose at least stays out of the way. THE DA VINCI CODE didn’t, and I only muddled through because I promised someone I’d read it and tell her what I thought of the story. On the other hand, THE GODFATHER–described by someone as "the greatest bad book ever written"–keep things moving so I don’t how bad the writing is unless I’m in one of those moods.
As for my writing, I want it to be as good as I can make it. If it doesn’t sell, it doesn’t sell. Such is the purity allowed when you have no contract and a steady day job.
Remember Lee Child’s famous Bouchercon panel called "Plot is Just a Rental Car?" His premise was that if he told you he had spent the weekend in Phoenix with Cameron Diaz, you wouldn’t care what kind of car he rented at the airport there. It was just the vehicle to get you to the character.
That’s been my point of view as well, and yet … there are those damn Steig Larsen books.
If you want to examine Dan Brown’s writing without a compelling story line (for clinical, educational purposes only), try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Fortress
Oy vey. I read to the end just to MST3K the cryptography and computer technology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deception_Point is also worth checking out of the library for the same reason. I’ve enjoyed the Langdon books much more, though I have to say, I haven’t read any of them a second time.
I won’t read books that I’m told more than once are poorly written, but if I stumble on one and the story is fun, I’ll read it and possibly even love it. I’m not too much of a snob when it comes to the mechanics of writing; great prose never saved a bad story. At least not for me.
The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo wasn’t anything special, but I was hooked from chapter 4 onwards. As long as you can get people to wonder what happens next, the writing style doesn’t matter.
When I was in high school, the "in-book" was "Flowers in the Attic" by V.C. Andrews. It was pure drivel with a story that was unbelievable yet riveting. The series was so successful that after the author died, the publisher used her name as a brand on other books. The thing for me is I can read something just for entertainment like seeing a popcorn movie, but I won’t reread it and it won’t have a permanent place in my collection.
For me, if the telling of a story is crap, it makes the story crap. It’s like trying to listen to a song sung off key. My advice to a writer who wants to sell, however, would be to focus on the story and the pacing and not worry about the rest, because most readers are not like me.
Probably the last badly written novel I read to the end was SNOW FALLING ON CEDARS, and I was trapped on a cross-country flight with nothing else to read.
I think that the "good prose" gene and the "good story" gene don’t always go together. I have read books that I thought were not that well written, but I couldn’t turn the pages fast enough. On the other hand, I will stop reading if I find the book boring. Good storytelling is never boring, even if it’s poorly written.
Guilty Pleasures? Even though much of it seemed a bit silly, I read the Stieg Larsson series obsessively (and did, in fact, question the writing often). I didn’t make it 20 pages into TDVC but that might’ve been because I brought it to the gym and it was so damn big & heavy (which, come to think of it, the last of the Larsson books, also huge – Hornet’s Nest, was one of three reasons to get a kindle/cost of books being the foremost). I guess it’s storyline for me. If I like it and I’m interested in seeing where it goes, I ignore the writing formulas (or I guess I do). I can tell the difference between Steinbeck and Stieg but would only reread Steinbeck. That said, my wife and I couldn’t wait to see the first of the Swedish films (and we thoroughly enjoyed it).
I will have to try to get into the Twilight series, because I have lower standards for how I like my science fiction and/or fantasy novels, but I still want to not read anything too dreadful in that category (like Asimov).
As far as bad prose goes, the only series I really ran into the bad prose was in the Harry Potter series onwards after Goblet of Fire. The book size JUMPED between Prisoner of Azkaban and Goblet of Fire, and her prose got worse and worse imo, and what had been a terriffic series turned into dreck right around Book 5, Order of the Phoenix, and I actually gave up on OotP early on after I asked my friend (who was also into HP) who Rowling killed off THIS time.
However, as far as most mystery/thriller novels go, I can usually read one of them in a sitting, like many of Fleming’s novels, Lee Child’s Tripwire and Persuader (read both of those in a single sitting), and Toni McGee Causey’s Bobbie Faye books.
When I first read Charmed & Dangerous, it was called Bobbie Faye’s Very (Very, Very, Very) Bad Day (btw, I like the title Charmed & Dangerous better for very obvious reasons 😉 ). I loved it, and I read it in 2 sittings.
I also love the Lilian Jackson Braun Cat Who… mystery novel series, and I almost threw the last book she did, Cat Who Had 60 Whiskers, across the room because of the ending to that book (which I refuse to spoil).
So, hopefully that is enlighting, JD. I think that good writing DOES matter, to a point.
BJ
Clumsy prose? Much of Asimov. Great plots? Much of Asimov.
My mind is a muddle of thoughts. And here I are alone without a body to discuss the images floating by my ears with. Oh sorry! I had a quick case of Dan Brown Itis. May I call you Dusty?
You make me want to sit by a fire, brook, stream, cottonwood tree, and just converse. What a great post.
Sister Celia has me so stuck in grammar that I want, like Zoe, to pitch a poorly written book out the window, hopefully striking the author. Further, I want to strangle the agent and the publisher.
Novels are, first and foremost, stories. Sometimes, we can delve past an unappetizing surface to discover a delicious treat of story and characters. Not all cakes are decorated by the hand of a master pastry chef, but some books are like Mom’s pineaple upside down cake. It will never make the cover of a magazine, but there’s never a crumb left to toss out. It sates the senses but still leaves a yearning for more.
I love to discover a book that is a gastronomical delight. Great post – food for thought.
(PK – did you sleep in today?)
Dusty:
I decided a long time ago that life is too short to be reading ANYTHING that’s badly written. There are so many great writers writing books that offer BOTH a fascinating story and terrific prose that it seems absurd to settle for one or the other. I got halfway through Carlos Ruiz Zafon’s THE SHADOW OF THE WIND before I stopped cold, unable to take his clumsy attempts at literary prose and amateurish plot devices a minute longer. The story sucked me in, but ultimately, that wasn’t enough to keep me going.
Frankly, I find it rather encouraging to hear that so many people willing to overlook bad writing to get a great story are actually AWARE that they’re doing so. The people who make me crazy are the ones who read the TWILIGHT books religiously and tout the writing in them as great, oblivious to the fact that prose and story are two very different things.
Great story or great prose? It’s a false choice. Look around hard enough, and there a plenty of books and writers out there who can offer you both.
Hey, Dusty. I think about this issue from a writer’s POV quite a lot, since I agonize about the prose in my own work. Now, whether my prose ends up right or not, and whether I should be spending all that time on it–those are different stories. It would be easier for me to be easier on the reader.
The problem with Twilight is that it’s terribly rambling and insipidly wordy. It needs precision. The problem with Dan Brown is that the prose is so wooden and distant from the characters, so technical, so devoid of emotion. It needs to actually "feel" the characters inner lives for half a second. That’s truly the hardest part about good writing–getting the form to suggest and imitate the sense.
I know my own prose could be more "serviceable" and straightforward. But for me the effort’s about more than appealing to the largest audience possible, and amassing the most fans and money possible (though I’m not knocking such a thing!). It also has to do with personal fulfillment. Did I write something I’m proud of–not just as a marketable product, but as a work of art? Do I feel like I captured a living piece of human experience AND told a good story?
Another pressing question is whether or not certain kinds of "good writing" are actually an impediment to marketability. That is to say: the clearest most straightforward most DISTANT and TELLING prose is easiest for the reader ("The knock to the head left Jim confused"). But then the hapless, well-intentioned writer spends all his time trying to get the sense of a character’s idiosyncratic misunderstanding, confusion, or ambiguous vision embedded in the prose itself. Oops!
I’m very, very, very saddened when I suppose that such work is the equivalent of shooting oneself in the foot. Yes, yes–perfect clarity and simplicity is an art from. But it’s not the only art form!
Judy — Wow, you noticed I’m starting an alternate summer schedule at work this week. Instead of doing five 10s for the overtime pay, I’m doing four 10s with Wednesdays off to work on my newsletter. 🙂 I’m figuring the extra time is worth more right now than the extra pay. My dog did wake me up at 5:30 saying hey, aren’t you supposed to up and gone by now?
I’m reading the responses here and I’m wondering if there is a mixing of "good writing" and "liking the book". What are the elements of "good writing" that are there or lacking?
For some reason, after reading the comments, I’m thinking about oral storytellers . . .
Some wrap us in the story so beautifully we can feel the cool air and smell the honeysuckle at dawn. Others tell us stories about subjects so horrific or funny that we just don’t care about the setting of scenes other than to quickly ground us in place and time.
Both have different focuses, but both also have their roles.
Serviceable prose carries us along usually because the story itself interests us. Beautiful prose can have no major story at all but keep us reading because the experience is so marvelous.
To me, it’s more of a question of whether the telling of the story serves it or gets in the way. Beautiful prose can get in the way just as easily as crappy prose.
Oh . . . hell, I don’t know.
When I first read Twilight I was stuck in a NY hotel room with a sick kid while my husband was at a convention. Some stories are good for mindless reading – distract you from life without draining you. At the time, I thought it was excellent – particulary for a young adult novel. And sometimes I think people forget that it was written for teenagers. And we have to remember how dumbed down things have gotten in the past 20 years. I think there was a higher standard back in the 70′ and 80’s.
There have been a few one hit wonders that I’ve thrown across the room in disgust or outright laughed at the poor writing. There’s one particular author – very popular, who I discovered writes better YA stories than adult novels.
Dan Brown – I love his stories. Guess I’m a poor judge of bad writing, because I didn’t think his writing was bad. His books engaged me. It was really interesting to see in "Thrillers" Steve Berry’s thoughts on how Brown’s work has helped breath life back into the thriller industry.
When I first read this post, it depressed me. I had to go think for a while. Realized you were right and it wasn’t necessary horrible. 🙂
Recently I judged a contest and had to read several books. Two stayed on my mind. One was very campy mystery from a little known small press. Another book was published by a very well-known and respected company, great cover, lush writing.
I had wonderful laugh out loud moments with the first. With the other, I actually skimmed pages because it was repetitive and not much happened in terms of the mystery.
Maybe it’s not just the writing, but also the type of story.
But for me the effort’s about more than appealing to the largest audience possible, and amassing the most fans and money possible (though I’m not knocking such a thing!). It also has to do with personal fulfillment. Did I write something I’m proud of–not just as a marketable product, but as a work of art? Do I feel like I captured a living piece of human experience AND told a good story?
Derek’s answer is closest to the one I came up with as well. Why worry over the prose? Pride. I want to be able to look at something and go, Yeah, that’s good" (the fact that I so often look at it and go "this sucks, why did I ever think I could be a writer" is more of a personal demon).
In addition, over at Facebook where I also asked this question, my friend Joanie pointed out:
Whether it matters depends on what you are looking for from a book. Twilight and TDVC are candy for your brain. Skittles entertain your tongue, but how long do they satisfy? If I want a beach read, I go with the candy; if I want my life enriched as only good art does, I’ll look for something else.
Which is also a good answer.
Meyer wrote her first book in three months and, according to her, was published by accident. I have read V.C. Andrews, Sydney Sheldon, Dan Brown, J.K Rowling, and Meyer. I have also read Dickens, Victor Hugo, Jane Austin, and the Bronte sisters. I found the second set slower paced and sometimes wondered if I needed to keep track of all the characters that were introduced. The latter set would most certainly have been edited differently if published today. Authors write for a variety of reasons including, fame, volume of sales, best seller lists, income, to make publication by the big six, to inspire, inform…. Some just write because it’s satisfying. We all have our guilty pleasures. With so many first chapter excerpts on-line, can we compare them to see what compels us to continue reading?
Debbie
This reminds me of the rules post not long ago. One thing I’ve noticed is that everyone has a different idea of what "bad" writing is, and the degree to which we tolerate it varies quite a bit.
Meyer wrote her first book in three months and, according to her, was published by accident.
How do I arrange an accident like that?
We all know where I stand on this – I think different books appeal to different readers. I know there are books I’ve picked up that I recoil from because it’s going to take too much effort at that particular moment to slog through (Jo Nesbo’s REDBREAST is a good example. I know it’s wonderful, but I wasn’t in the frame of mind to put forth the effort it was going to take). It’s safe to say I’m a lazy reader – I want to be entertained, and I’m willing to look past what others deem bad writing to get that. Obviously if the writing is horrendous it pulls me too far away from the story to enjoy it, but I’m not too picky when it comes to reading. I just like a fun, absorbing tale.
"Well-written" matters at the point that the writing prods the reader out of the story experience. Can happen with both "good" and "bad" writing, and can also be accomplished with spectacularly boneheaded story devices that have nothing at all to do with the form or style of the sentences.
Twilight & Dan Brown: Love the stories, but the awfulness of the writing kept throwing me out of my reading "head space." Very annoying, much like the office noob who keeps interrupting you just when you’ve hit your pinnacle of focus and efficiency.
Rob- gonna have to disagree with you on the ‘dumbing down YA’ thing. I read Murderati, but I’m a YA writer and a reader, though I’m long past the age group (and still embarrassing people when I recommend things to teens in bookstores). Yes, some of the books are dumbed down, but so are many adult novels. Some people just like that sort of story. Cory Doctorow’s Little Brother is at least as cleverly put together and gripping as Ender’s Game; both are YA, but Ender’s Game was written 23 years before Little Brother. And I swear, if you try to read that and say it’s dumbed down…
Sorry. It’s been a long day, and my relatives- who are all thrilled that I’m so talented and creative and know how to write and will be a wealthy author once I write something worthwhile- completely influenced that.
Anyway. I read Eragon and other badly written YA novels (not including Twilight, but I don’t like romances normally, so badly written… but it did include Harry Potter OotP; as a note to BJ, the fifth book was by far the worst in the series, but the last three in no way reached previous levels of awesome) without noticing it much on the first read-through. I can’t reread them, though. They’re library books; the ones I buy are ones I’ll read over and over again, the ones I get from the library I either can’t afford or won’t read too often (mostly the first, luckily, or else I wouldn’t be on such great terms with the librarians). Craft matters, because while stories get us reading, I don’t quote things from the bad books. Might not be a distinction most make, but it’s one I do.
@eika Guess I shouldn’t have used such an overreaching statement. I wasn’t implying all ya is dumbed down. There are some books that may be ya that I’ve read that I don’t consider ya because they just don’t strike me that way because they are so well written. It’s true of all genres. Ashamed to say I haven’t read "Ender’s Game" or "Little Brother" yet. Some books you just have to be in the proper mood to read them.
I think everyone has already said this … BUT SINCE I WROTE IT … you must read! (ha-HA!)
Suspension of belief – for me, it’s a deal breaker – but for other people – not. (Movie example: Night at the museum. Book example: A lot of Daniel Steele)
Poor writing – I’m not that good at noticing technical problems (which is why my own writing suffers).
Poor plot/story – DRIVES ME INSANE. But it has to be something I’m familiar with/know something about. I read a work by a debut author in the last year. I felt like she threw EVERYTHING and THE KITCHEN SINK into the story. Mortgage collapse, raw food craze, children w/ADD, unemployment, and homosexuality = legal marriage or not. The story would have been fine and engaging had she just stuck to any one thing.
Lyrical vs spare prose – if I understand what you’re describing – either is fine with me. It I’ve got to wade through it (lyrical) – or guess what you’re really trying to say (spare) it’s failure. Even if there is subject/verb agreement, no dangling participles or split infinitives.
I’m not really qualified to comment on what is or isn’t "good" writing. Don’t have a degree in LitCrit and, in fact, after reading these comments had to look up "prose" to see whether it meant what I thought it did. It does.
Back when the kids were little, a good book was one I could read for 30 minutes, put down, and continue reading again as much as two days later and pick up where I’d left off without having to think too much about what had already happened. Even if it was a different book entirely.
These days, what I consider to be a good read on a Monday night is different from what I’d choose on a Friday night or a lazy Sunday afternoon or when I’m on vacation. There are many times I go into the library and just pick something at random without expectations and let the story take me wherever it wants to go and that’s enough. Right now, a good book is anything that is completely different from what I’m writing.
So first I consider what kind of story I’m in the mood for. After that, it’s voice. I’m willing to overlook all kinds of technical nonsense if the voice is compelling. If something doesn’t grab me within the first chapter or so, I’m done. But it’s so subjective. It varies not just from reader to reader but from moment to moment or mood to mood for the same reader.
I suspect that if I were forced to read nothing but what others considered to be "good writing" I’d just go ahead and slit my wrists and be done with it. For me, reading fiction is a form of entertainment.
If I ever get publishedWhen I get published, I will be just as happy to know someone read my work 30 minutes at a time with large gaps of child-rearing in between as I will be if someone stayed up all night and was late to work the next day so they could finish it in one sitting. And I’m very grateful for the apparent variety in taste of the folks in the publishing business who decide which stories get into print.I’m also feeling very guilty because I had planned to attend Alex’s signing tonight and completely forgot. Although, honestly, faced with the choice of going back out into the 95-degree at 7:00 tonight I might have decided not to. So, in all fairness, if I ever have a book signing on a day when it’s too effing hot to even breathe, you all have my permission to just stay home. As long as you order it online instead. Which I will do tomorrow, Alex (if you’re reading this) (ahem. that is, I will even if you’re not reading this).
Just read the language log and was thoroughly amused. Admittedly, sarcasm is my favourite form of humour and, with shame I admit I probably would not have caught most of those blunders even if I were looking for them. Any chance Geoffrey K. Pullum would be interested in editing my MS? BTW – To add fuel to the accident fire, Meyer’s MS was pulled out of a slush pile – yes, that’s right! (After a whopping total of fifteen submissions, all unsolicited.) Anyone for heading to Vegas with her?
I’m coming in here very late, but good prose matters to me. When I write, when I read.
And I guess in my world that’s all that really counts.
I once mailed an Earlene Fowler book back to the publisher with the grammar corrected. The writing made me nuts. I enjoy her characters, but I keep being pulled out of the story to wonder if the author ever finished High School.
Can’t you get this jerk out of here? With the watches and other garbage?
http://www.manelefree.net replica swiss watches
http://www.worldwide-watches.com replica watches
http://www.watches-mens.com mens watches
http://www.watches-mens.com/breitling-navitimer breitling navitimer
http://www.watches-mens.com/rolex-datejust rolex datejust
http://www.worldwide-watches.com/rolex-watches rolex watches
http://www.worldwide-watches.com/bell-ross-watches bell ross watches
http://www.worldwide-watches.com/ferrari-watches ferrari watches
http://www.worldwide-watches.com/bvlgari-watches bvlgari watches
http://www.worldwide-watches.com/rolex-datejust-watches Rolex DateJust
http://www.worldwide-watches.com/burberry-watches Burberry watches
http://www.worldwide-watches.com/breguet-watches Breguet watches
http://www.worldwide-watches.com/chopard-watches-c-24 chopard watches
http://www.worldwide-watches.com/hublot-watches hublot watches
http://www.worldwide-watches.com/u-boat-watches U boat watches
http://www.watches-mens.com/rolex-daytona rolex daytona
http://www.watches-mens.com/iwc iwc watches
http://www.watches-mens.com/panerai-luminor panerai luminor
http://www.watches-mens.com/burberry burberry watches
When you are young, you may want several love experiences. But as time goes on, you will realize that if you really love someone, the whole life will not be enough. You need time to know, to forgive and to love. All this needs a very big mind.http://www.online-replica.net/online-replica-iwc-da-vinci-419.html